[Toybox] complaining about 'ifconfig' - better use 'ip'

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:17:17 +0200
Bastian Bittorf <bittorf at bluebottle.com> wrote:

> * Rob Landley <rob at landley.net> [04.04.2013 10:03]:
> > I've used "ip" a couple times. I mostly use ifconfig, because it's
> > there and I see no upside in using "ip". I also use iwlist and
> 
> iwlist is also dead since a long time, the successor is 'iw'
> which shares/imitates to 'ip' syntax

Oh?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Jean_Tourrilhes/Linux/Tools.html#latest
doesn't mention that, AFAICT.
Also, iw _requires_ nl80211.  I know this because it did not work for me.
(ie, iw IS NOT a replacement for wireless-tools)

(OT, I usually use iwmulticall, the multicall version of wireless-tools)

> > ifenslave and tunctl and various other tools. Does ip have some kind
> > of plugin architecture to suck all that into one big monolithic
> > command?
> 
> there is not plugin-arch, just one command which simply
> manipulates the kernels netlink-interface.

Yuck.  One monolith that does everything but no plugin architecture...

> > >if you are
> > >really using 'ifconfig', you should better switch now. the
> > >pain will be much worse if you wait again 2 years...
> > 
> > In what way? I vaguely recall first hearing about "ip" back under Red
> > Hat 9, which shipped in 2003. So I've been successfully largely
> > ignoring it for 10 years now. What's queued up to change in the near
> > future?
> 
> i will. there is no work done anymore on ifconfig, even the manpage
> says to switch.

Well, if toybox implements ifconfig, there will be work done on ifconfig.
I won't be switching.  And Rob won't be.  And Android won't be.

In other words, if you're switching, who cares?  If you want an ip command, please either write it yourself or pay for it to happen. It's not on Rob's agenda at present, and this argument over whether to implement it or ifconfig is making no headway and impeding real progress.

> > Is there a standard on this? I'm happy to implement a standard...
> 
> there is no standard, just reallive (like the mount or init-command):

mount and init have specs in LSB--though it's not enough.
Landley's point is that toybox aims to be standards-conformant, not to copy every command in every detail. And if you can point to a standard (POSIX, LSB, or similar, not "consensus among a subset of distros" which would also mandate avahi for zeroconf and pulse for audio) that says "use ip", then that will mandate implementing ip.

> every developer in the network world has realized, that doing the
> 'ifconfg/route/arp/netstat'-thingy was a dead-end-street.

As far as I can tell, that problem is only with the net-tools implementation of ifconfig. BSD still uses ifconfig, and so does Android.

-- 
Isaac Dunham <idunham at lavabit.com>